"Positioning Tool" and the Getting Started document (LV 2009 30 day trial, on day 1)

[LandyRover]

Hi..

Well, I got LV2009 installed, upated and running (I think)  It only took a couple of hours, and three reboots!

Anyway.   A silly newbie problem I suspect...

Beginning to work my way through the "Getting Started with LabView pdf document, and already have quesitons I can't find the answers for.

In the document, following the instructions on page 1-10  (Wiring objects on the block diagram)  What happens in reality, is different from what the document says, in regards to selecting the Knob object, and the "Positioning Tool".    Moving the cursor over the Knob object, it indeed changes to an arrow, but in no way can I find a way to get a "Positioning Tool" visible, or to resize that object.   I can't see get or otherwise invoke the "Grey Loop" either.

However, taking a flyer, having found that just hovering over the connection port (VERY difficult, as the knob object is so small) I get the wire spool, & I can wire it to the simulate signal "Amplitude" input, just fine.   And when the VI is run, it does what it says on the side of the tin.   Reeesult!

But...

Question 1:  What/where is the Positioning Tool the getting started document talks about?  Am I in error thinking that it is different from the "Arrow" cursor?

Question 2:  How can I make icons/objects on the block diagram larger so I can see what the I'm doing?

Quesiton 3:  How the heck, to you find out on the block diagram, what is "wired" to what?   The wire I just placed I know runs from the Knob to the Amplitude input (but does not do that "Visually", as there does not seem to be a way to find out by clicking and looking at properties what input it is connected to.

Question 4:  Having used one "Knob" control, why can't I place another, to say alter the simulated frequency?   It's disapeared from the "Express" pallett, no more "Numeric Controls" are to be found.

This is on XP Pro, all up to date (as of today)  I'm having to work through this on my tod, as there is no one else here who knows anything about this at all.   Boss Man said something about training courses, then I showed him the cost!  And I'm doing this while waiting for something big to warm up, before abusing it like a customer would.

Lastly, how the Bleeep!  can I stop the text editor of this forum, joining words (auto deleting spaces) when I backspace over one as thoughts change.

That is all (for now).

Dave B.

[Dennis_Knutson]

1. The 'arrow' cursor changes when you move the mouse over the resize handles (little squares) of a front panel object. For example, if you have a string control, there are resizing handles at the corners and at the middle of each side. For a knob, the resize handles are located around the knob.

2. Right click on a terminal and select 'View As Icon'. I thought icon view was the default with new intallations so I'm not sure why you are seeing large terminals.

3. Right click on a terminal and select Find Control/Indicator.

4. No idea what you did. The Express palatte is not something I use. I'm sure it's there someplace.

You will gain an awful lot just by experimenting and right clicking on objects. Make use of the on-line help. Go to the help menu and select 'Show contect Help'.

There are some free tutorials here and many other training options including third-party books.

p.s. I have no idea what you mean by 'Grey Loop'.

[Rod42]

Hi,

Quickies to keep you going....

1) The arrow from bottom right to top left IS the positioning tool. Hover it over an object (beware some specific positions on an abject will auto select another tool, such as the spool-of-wire wiring tool as you have found out) click and drag to move an object.

2) Use a magnifying glass! Seriously with the higher resolution screens, the object have become smaller and potentially more difficult to wire. The suggestion isn't as fatuous as it may sound. I sometimes use the screen magnifier tool. Depending on what you dropped you might get relief by roght clicking and selecting/deselecting show as icon. You can change the size of the block diagram (EDIT: Oops, front panel) objects by hovering over the object near the edge (or selecting the object) See the black dots around it? Good. move the mouse over a dot and it will change to a double pointing arrow [Left-right, Up-down, or diagonal] click and drag to change the size in the direction shown.

3) Try clicking, double clicking, triple clicking on a wire. As it is selected you get a "marching ant" animation to show the extent of the wire. I guess you've discovered that the data type is indicated by the wire colour. Blue = integer, orange = real, pink = string for example.

4) Assuming you haven't been editing the pallet properties, I don't know. Make sure you're looking at the right screen. You need to be on the front panel (the user interface) to get at the controls (That's the grey one). The block diagram only has the "code" on it.

Also..... To really freak you out, press control-U. That's the auto clean up. It will (potentially) move all the objects around, without affecting the wiring to what it thinks is a better arrangement. For a less drastic action, right click a wire, and select clean up wire from the menu, That will move just the one wire to a, sometimes, better route.

Keep going an have fun, and keep reading the forums. It will get easier. You might even get to prefer it to C, Fortran, etc.

Don't be afraid to ask questions, even if all we do is to point you to where ther is more information.

A good place for more information is to press control-H. This is context help. A small help windoe will appear, and change dependong on where you hover the mouse. Frequently there will be a click here for more information on the context help.

That should be enough to keep you going......

Rod.

Message Edited by Rod on 15/10/2009 16:24.. 04:24 PM

[LandyRover]

Hi Rod (and Dennis)  Sorry, but this goes on a bit....

The way this forum works is begining to p me off too, this has reinforced my views as to why I hate web forums.  Is there a LV email list or newsgroup somewhere?  I want to reply referencing what both of you have said, but this only shows one message, not the entire thread, when one is editing a missive.

Anyway.  Ctrl-U cleaned up and sorted out several things, on the block diagram.  The "Grey Loop" (the thick grey border that surrounds the block diagram relating to the VI being worked on) suddenluy became visible too.  I suspect it might have been larger than the screen on this laptop.   It also tidied up the wire, making it much more logical, as now it can be seen exactly where it comes from, and goes to.   Why it can't do that automaticaly when you first "connect" it who knows.

Currently, I've put another knob on the VI, that varies the "DC Offset" of the simulated waveform, and again that works exactly as intended.  I've even found how to stop the waveform graph from autoscaling the vertical axis.  Progress indeed.

However, it's the development User Interface that's realy raising my blood presure, what if any logic is there, in regards to selecting an object and moving it arround the VI's panel?

I'm used to things like Delphi, and other visual development tools, where you just grab, move and drop it to where you want it.  No fuss, no drama.

Here, you click on it, and it seems anything but selection happens.  Double click, and you get the propterties dialog.  Sometimes (not always) when you clear that, it leave a flashing dotted line arround the object, and then (sometimes) you can move it, but you have to use the keyboard cursor keys for that, as you can't grab the object or it's edges with the mouse!

At the moment, I have several things on the VI panel I can't move, or even delete, as that option does not seem to exist either, not even using the keyboard "Del" key.   Was the VI panel development UI made by a someone who thinks in reverse polish logic or something, or do I have to wait for the right phase of the moon and a black cat to appear somewhere?

Whats confusing me (and my colegues, who were wondering why I was swearing so much) is the fact that the logic for selecting and moving objects arround the screen, seems totally different between the VI front pannel (incomprehensible) and the block diagram (more or less intuitive)  A different software team did each of them I guess?

At the moment, I'm battling (and loosing the will to live) trying to relocate an "Error Out" indicator on the VI pannel.  I can resize it, but it's internal components do not stay within the bounds of it's overall borders, I've even managed to (somehow) relocate it's "frame" (for a better description.)  But it's internal components did not move with the outer frame!

Why have I got an "Error Out" indicator?  Why not, I want to see what it does.  I've got it "wired" to the Error Out port of the waveform simulator, that seems logical.

The "missing" numeric control knob menu, was found (eventualy) on the VI's popup dialog.   The two sets of popup menus of objects etc, are too similar to each other, they are not bound to the window that spawned them, so if you bring up the block diagram for example, the VI's tool selection is still visible and selectable.  Confusing.

The help system, though it is context sensitive, is like just about every other integrated help system I've ever come accross, more an aid-memiour, than a true "Help" system.  It's only really of any use, if you already know what's what.   For a rank beginner (like me!) I find it of little help.  Much better, are many of the popup hints when you do something wrong in the block diagram, like wire up incompatable blocks!  🙂

Typicaly, highlight(select) an object on the block diagram, hit Ctrl-H, and yes a help dialog comes up telling you what it is you have selected.  What it doesnt explain, is what it does.   There again, that's common with many other "visual" (and non visual) programming languages...

As to the original subject, the "Positioning Tool" I'm still none the wiser either.   The Getting started document talks about it in several places, but doesnt realy tell you what it is, or how to get it.

Is that document (Getting Started with LabVIEW) fully up to date with the 2009 (9.0) version, or is it (like many other software packages) at least one major version behind reality?   If so, where's the bleading edge doc' that relates to this version of the software?

Lastly.  Who wrote the search algorighms for the forum?  It's all or nothing, not even as good as Google (and that's often grossly poluted these days.)

Sorry for the -ve waves, but I don't suffer stuff like this lightly.  How am I suposed to recomend purchasing it, at the cost it is (well over £1500 UK) for the basic package, when part of the development UI functions like something a 6 year old kid threw together?

I need to learn how to use LabVIEW to do real work.  Not spend hours and hours fighting the GUI.

Sorry, I'm going home now to consult the cat about life the universe and everything.  She's black too.

Cheers.

Dave B.

PS: I once had to hack into a Fortran77 compiler on a Data General Nova series system some decades ago.  Not dificult to understand, and it was usefull in the end as a support geek for that company.   Likewise, the assembler/disasembler for hardware diagnostics.

The one "language" I've ever had any formal training in, was ANSI C (as in K&R book etc)  At the time I enjoyed it, but since then, C and all it's dialects can take a running jump IMHO, as once I discovered Delphi (again, in a support roll for an existing software product) I think I've been spoilt with one of the best IDE's going on the Windows platform at least.   I've used VB (and VBA) because we had to, but though it genraly works OK, it's too easy to do bad things!    I've seen only one rock solid user app written in VB over the years, one only.   ("UiView" if your wondering.  A true work of art, and as solid as they come.)

Way back, I've programmed (and repaired) most micro based systems, and some mini's in everythng from machine code (even in Octal, using switches and light bulbs!) upwards, so programming and flow charts etc are not alien to me.

But the way the VI user panel development GUI operates, beggars belief at the moment.

. -. -..

[Dennis_Knutson]

I really don't know what you are doing wrong. If you click on abject, you can drag it wherever you want. Are you sure you are actually selecting something? A dotted and flashing line will appear around the object. If you are having a problem with just clicking on something, use the mouse to click and drag a box around an object. You might also want to look at how the cursor does automatic changes so that if you move the mouse over a numeric, for example, the tool will change so that you can click the increment/decrement buttons or change so that you can enter a value.

The moving of objects on the front panel is exactly the same as moving objects on the block diagram.

Have you tried the on-line tutorials I mentioned?

[TCPlomp]

Hi Landrover,

it seems you are genuine and honest and provide reasening for your opinion and little rants, so I try to help to the best of my knowledge.

---

LandyRover wrote:

Hi Rod (and Dennis)  Sorry, but this goes on a bit....

 Is there a LV email list or newsgroup somewhere?...

This exact forum is used to be displayed on the comp.lang.labview newsgroup, if you want a web-based forum that supports mult-quoting have a look at LAVA. which is namely targetted at advanced level but have quite good newbie ethics. Or you can get Info-LabVIEW mailing list (low traffic, not so keen on Windows)

Anyway.  Ctrl-U cleaned up and sorted out several things, on the block diagram.  .... Why it can't do that automaticaly when you first "connect" it who knows.

Ouch, Auto clean up is a wunderfull feature, but only recent added (at the 8.6 release), and it is quite nice to get sloppy wiring straight, however it is like using auto-complete for an official letter you sent to a client.

However, it's the development User Interface that's realy raising my blood presure, what if any logic is there, in regards to selecting an object and moving it arround the VI's panel?

I'm used to things like Delphi, and other visual development tools, where you just grab, move and drop it to where you want it.  No fuss, no drama.

Here, you click on it, and it seems anything but selection happens.  Double click, and you get the propterties dialog.

You can switch that off in the options (I believe), see below (Big difference.....)

  Sometimes (not always) when you clear that, it leave a flashing dotted line arround the object, and then (sometimes) you can move it, but you have to use the keyboard cursor keys for that, as you can't grab the object or it's edges with the mouse!

When an object is selected (hence the spotted area surrounding it) and it is not behind some other object you can move it around with the mouse, by clicking the border of the object. Some object are notoriously hard to get (XControls)

At the moment, I have several things on the VI panel I can't move, or even delete, as that option does not seem to exist either, not even using the keyboard "Del" key.   Was the VI panel development UI made by a someone who thinks in reverse polish logic or something, or do I have to wait for the right phase of the moon and a black cat to appear somewhere?

Patience my dear friend. If you stick with LabVIEW/us you will not even notice these things. Another trick to select something is to 'draw' a selection box aroun a corner of the object.

 Whats confusing me (and my colegues, who were wondering why I was swearing so much) is the fact that the logic for selecting and moving objects arround the screen, seems totally different between the VI front pannel (incomprehensible) and the block diagram (more or less intuitive)  A different software team did each of them I guess?

The big difference between FP and BD is that the FP-elements are active objects. They are at the same time user elements (change value, control axis) and programmer's elements (move, change attributes) while BD object don't react to user clicks.

 At the moment, I'm battling (and loosing the will to live) trying to relocate an "Error Out" indicator on the VI pannel.  I can resize it, but it's internal components do not stay within the bounds of it's overall borders, I've even managed to (somehow) relocate it's "frame" (for a better description.)  But it's internal components did not move with the outer frame!

Try to right-click on the border of the 'Error Out' and select 'Sizing->Size to fit', and then rearrange the inner components.

The "missing" numeric control knob menu, was found (eventualy) on the VI's popup dialog.   The two sets of popup menus of objects etc, are too similar to each other, they are not bound to the window that spawned them, so if you bring up the block diagram for example, the VI's tool selection is still visible and selectable.  Confusing.

I'm confused as well, I don't understand what you mean.

The help system, though it is context sensitive, is like just about every other integrated help system I've ever come accross, more an aid-memiour, than a true "Help" system.  It's only really of any use, if you already know what's what.   For a rank beginner (like me!) I find it of little help.  Much better, are many of the popup hints when you do something wrong in the block diagram, like wire up incompatable blocks!  🙂

I knew there was someone loving them  .

Typicaly, highlight(select) an object on the block diagram, hit Ctrl-H, and yes a help dialog comes up telling you what it is you have selected.  What it doesnt explain, is what it does.   There again, that's common with many other "visual" (and non visual) programming languages...

Have you installed all the help files? If so there should be a 'Detailed help' on almost all the basic functions (VIs and nodes).

As to the original subject, the "Positioning Tool" I'm still none the wiser either.   The Getting started document talks about it in several places, but doesnt realy tell you what it is, or how to get it.

Select the menu option 'Window-> Show tools Palette', this will open a window with the several tools that a FP or BD can have. One of them is the Positioning Tool. I prefer the auto-tool and grew accustomed to how LabVIEW jumps from one tool to the other. However even just seeing what jumping happens will help you. You can turn off the auto-tool selection with the upper LED image, or use TAB to switch from tool.

Is that document (Getting Started with LabVIEW) fully up to date with the 2009 (9.0) version, or is it (like many other software packages) at least one major version behind reality?   If so, where's the bleading edge doc' that relates to this version of the software?

I think the Getting started is up to speed, moreover the Getting started shouldn't have changed much since LabVIEW 7.0 (mostly serious), my first memory is from LabVIEW 5.0.

Lastly.  Who wrote the search algorighms for the forum?  It's all or nothing, not even as good as Google (and that's often grossly poluted these days.)

Lithium I guess

Cheers.

Dave B.

But the way the VI user panel development GUI operates, beggars belief at the moment.

. -. -..

---

 Uhm I don't get the latest sentence, care to elaborate.

Have fun,

Ton

[LandyRover]

Hi Dennis..

I've just successfully (at the nth attempt, seems there was a lot of internet congestion somewhere yesterday, or my call to the IT peeps, re some odd blocking behaviour of our firewall as done something) downloaded the LabVIEW in 3 hours turorial, but I see it is built arround V8.6, not V9.0/2009 that seems to be the current distirbution being pushed out.

All the training material I've seen so far, seems to assume one is a 100% full time student, and able to spend uninterupted time at it, not some poor sap who has been dropped into it from a great height and still has to do "the day job" too.  (A bench load of dead stuff, to fix, more arriving as I type.)  Somewhat frustrating, as it's a bit dificult to pick up where I left off, after some hours messing with hot oil, high voltage, and kW's of RF!

(You can immagine what happens if I get something wrong with that lot!   A bit more of a mess, than a crashed PC...)

I'll be back.

Dave B.

[Rod42]

Hi again Dave,

Don't Panic!

The forum system: I sometimes find the forum's posting system awkward; if I need to refer to several messages during a post, I have a copy of the thread in another tab in the browser. (Index in one tab, open the thread in another, and if I want to refer to the thread in a reply, open a second copy of the thread in another tab)

Don't worry about the tutorial being for 8.6 - it will be close enough for you to follow. The visual appearance, placing and wiring of elements is unchanged. NI has kept the user interface to its windows remarkably similar for some time now. All the difference you'll probably notice is that there are a few more selections available than are mentioned in the tutorial.

Regarding selection. I'll emphasise what Ton said. If you find the auto-tool confusing you can turn it off. The downside is that you then need to choose the tool each time you wnat to change. You may find it hard to believe NOW, but with experience you'll get to like it most of the time. It needs a bit of practise to get used to which parts of an object cause which tool to be selected, but does speed things up when you're used to it.

When you move an error out, make sure that you pick up the whole container (by clicking on the boundary) rather than objects within the container. Again you can also select the error out by dragging a box round the WHOLE object - start above and to the left of the whole thing, left mouse and drag to below and to the right, but making sure you don't select anything else.  Anything selected will have the moving dotted boundary. If you select an object within the error out "cluster" and move it out of the box, you will change the structure of the cluster. (A cluster is like a C typedef struct). Later you'll find that the error wires are used for passing error conditions from sub-vis back to the calling VI, and can (are) also used to determine order of execution.

I did mention auto-clean earlier, but use it with caution as it can mess up carefully aligned code, and spread objects out more that you would want. However if you have a mess of wiring it can help.

LIke the others. I'm not sure what you are doing to get the "wrong" set of controls/functions. The relevent set should appear when you right click on the BD or FP (block diagram / front panel) If yo have pinned a set, it will appear disappear as the relevant window is selected. Are you looking for a control or function with the "wrong" window at the front?

Rod.

PS I've done Fortran and DG assembler on a Nova too.

Oh and if you like a post, click on it's "Kudos" star!

[LandyRover]

I was trying to reply to you, but I've just seen this....

Quote.

Please address the following to complete the message posting:

• Message cannot exceed 10,000 characters.

EndQuote

Why?  10k, that's small beer these days.

Not what I want to see after nearly 4 hours crafting a reply while trying your suggestions in LV, and addressing all the items in your post.

Plus the stupid forum logic does not tell me actualy how many characters/bytes etc the post was going to be, or I exceeded it by.

Or maybe it didnt' like my mention of what happens when you add water to Lithium?

I'll try again later.  Trouble is, though I've coppied the text of the post out of the forum, it's lost all of the formatting and highlighting etc.

I think I'll try road sweeping.

Dave B.

[LandyRover]

    TCPlomp wrote:

    Hi Landrover,

Ah me cover's blown!   That's one of my hobbies, muddy metal, big hammers etc.  But not without it's politics too, sadly.

The day job is as a service support type, involved with high power RF in the EMC field.  I do in house service, on-site install's, commisioning, training (hardware and software) also field repairs etc.  Also tea and biscuit quality testing for customers 🙂   I (and others here) also handle telephone/email support for customers, with our and third party software packages controling the whole shooting match.

I've been doing that now, in this job alone for the last, err..  19 years!

LabVIEW is not common in such circles, mainly I think, as it's always better to have something created by people who know the kit and procedures inside out, much of the hardware is unique to the industry too, though there are some LV drivers I do know of, mainly created by/for our prime benefactor in the US.

However..   Our prime benefactor in the US, is creating something with LV, that they realy want us to push, to that end we need to know how to support it, as when something small stops working, it brings the whole facility to a halt.  And when our customers charg their customers international telephone number sum's of money per hour for the use of the facility, things have to be fixed fast!   That's my job.

As half the system these days is softeware based, and however good the original programmers are, they cant cater for all

combinations of hardware and test procedure, it appears it will be my job soon, to do the same with the on site software under LV, as we do already with big RF amps hot oil, chilled water, 100's of amps of three phase, and many, many kW's of RF, "DC to Light" etc.

You can immagine the mess, if (when) things go awry!  I hope LV can react to external interlocks and interupts in a dambed quick way when needed, or will not be upset if some safety trip hardware does it's job.   Much of our stuff is pushed to and sometimes beyond the limit by users who can't afford what is realy needed (a bigger amp for example)  Things as a result can sometimes spectacularly "let go" with no warning at all.

I've personaly seen a 6' jet of plasma from the end of a RF cable, that fell out of a high power balun that ceased to exist in a fraction of a second.  The controling system at that time, saw a drop in field, and turned up the power even more!   The amp didn't trip, it was very happy in fact!  (Probably seeing a better match than the antenna.)  It took a long time to clean up the mess caused that time.

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