"Positioning Tool" and the Getting Started document (LV 2009 30 day trial, on day 1)

[LandyRover]

----Continuation----    

    it seems you are genuine and honest and provide reasening for your opinion and little rants, so I try to help to the best of my knowledge.

    Thanks.  My problem (some say an advantage) is that I don't "suffer fools" in any way.  I expect to be told the truth, also if someone does not know an answer to a question I ask, I'm more than happy if they are honnest and say, sorry, I don't know.   To the best of my ability I'll only tell the same, no BS.  (I learnt that hard lesson many years ago!)   Sadly, the software industry (and to some extent the EMC "industry") is often awash in BS, obscuring the truth!

    

        LandyRover wrote:

        Hi Rod (and Dennis)  Sorry, but this goes on a bit....

         Is there a LV email list or newsgroup somewhere?...

    This exact forum is used to be displayed on the comp.lang.labview newsgroup, if you want a web-based forum that supports mult-quoting have a look at LAVA. which is namely targetted at advanced level but have quite good newbie ethics. Or you can get Info-LabVIEW mailing list (low traffic, not so keen on Windows)

    I'll take a peek, but for now, best I avoid that by the sound of it! 🙂

        

        Anyway.  Ctrl-U cleaned up and sorted out several things, on the block diagram.  .... Why it can't do that automaticaly when you first "connect" it who knows.

        

    Ouch, Auto clean up is a wunderfull feature, but only recent added (at the 8.6 release), and it is quite nice to get sloppy wiring straight, however it is like using auto-complete for an official letter you sent to a client.

    Oh yes, I avoid Word and the spell checker for that reason, though it does often comes up with a message that is more close to what you realy want to say, and it's just so tempting to send on.   I'd have to clear my desk afterwards, just before I got my coat!   (I think I've been on the recieving end of a few of them though!)

    

    It'd be nice though, if the wires could be shown to go to where you placed them at first, not just disapearing into the object, untill a cleanup is done.  Is there an option to clean up the wiring, but NOT move objects arround the BD?

        

        However, it's the development User Interface that's realy raising my blood presure, what if any logic is there, in regards to selecting an object and moving it arround the VI's panel?

        

        I'm used to things like Delphi, and other visual development tools, where you just grab, move and drop it to where you want it.  No fuss, no drama.

        

        Here, you click on it, and it seems anything but selection happens.  Double click, and you get the propterties dialog.

    You can switch that off in the options (I believe), see below (Big difference.....)

          Sometimes (not always) when you clear that, it leave a flashing dotted line arround the object, and then (sometimes) you can move it, but you have to use the keyboard cursor keys for that, as you can't grab the object or it's edges with the mouse!

    When an object is selected (hence the spotted area surrounding it) and it is not behind some other object you can move it around with the mouse, by clicking the border of the object. Some object are notoriously hard to get (XControls)

    The problem I (was, more in a mo) having with that, is that I could not "select" an object on the VI just buy clicking on it like people were saying.  I've since found (was shown buy someone else) that you have to "swipe" it with the mouse, then you get the flashing spotted border, and you can then, and only then, grab and move it to somewhere else.  Again, I find that just clicking on it does not select it, for that purpose anyway.

        At the moment, I have several things on the VI panel I can't move, or even delete, as that option does not seem to exist either, not even using the keyboard "Del" key.   Was the VI panel development UI made by a someone who thinks in reverse polish logic or something, or do I have to wait for the right phase of the moon and a black cat to appear somewhere?

    Patience my dear friend. If you stick with LabVIEW/us you will not even notice these things. Another trick to select something is to 'draw' a selection box aroun a corner of the object.

    That's what we discovered as above, but the BD works in subtly different ways in that respect.

         Whats confusing me (and my colegues, who were wondering why I was swearing so much) is the fact that the logic for selecting and moving objects arround the screen, seems totally different between the VI front pannel (incomprehensible) and the block diagram (more or less intuitive)  A different software team did each of them I guess?

    The big difference between FP and BD is that the FP-elements are active objects. They are at the same time user elements (change value, control axis) and programmer's elements (move, change attributes) while BD object don't react to user clicks.

    Active?  Even when the VI is not running and still being built?  Hmmmmm.....

----More----

[LandyRover]

         At the moment, I'm battling (and loosing the will to live) trying to relocate an "Error Out" indicator on the VI pannel.  I can resize it, but it's internal components do not stay within the bounds of it's overall borders, I've even managed to (somehow) relocate it's "frame" (for a better description.)  But it's internal components did not move with the outer frame!

        

    Try to right-click on the border of the 'Error Out' and select 'Sizing->Size to fit', and then rearrange the inner components.

    Just tried that, that option in the list that appears, does not exist.  I have found you can do the same thing inside that object (swipe/draw a box arround it) to sort out it's internal component positions.  Just somewhat suprised they didn't rescale/reposition themselves with its bounds automaticaly.  Not sure, but I think I've seen options regarding auto sizing in some dialog somewhere.

        
        The "missing" numeric control knob menu, was found (eventualy) on the VI's popup dialog.   The two sets of popup menus of objects etc, are too similar to each other, they are not bound to the window that spawned them, so if you bring up the block diagram for example, the VI's tool selection is still visible and selectable.  Confusing.

        

    I'm confused as well, I don't understand what you mean.

    The tools for one "window" (the BD) are still visible and selectable, even when you are looking at the VI window (and vice versa.)  Does that make any more sense?

        The help system, though it is context sensitive, is like just about every other integrated help system I've ever come accross, more an aid-memiour, than a true "Help" system.  It's only really of any use, if you already know what's what.   For a rank beginner (like me!) I find it of little help.  Much better, are many of the popup hints when you do something wrong in the block diagram, like wire up incompatable blocks!  🙂

    I knew there was someone loving them  .

    At least you know that something is bad, before you hit the Go button!

        

        Typicaly, highlight(select) an object on the block diagram, hit Ctrl-H, and yes a help dialog comes up telling you what it is you have selected.  What it doesnt explain, is what it does.   There again, that's common with many other "visual" (and non visual) programming languages...

    Have you installed all the help files? If so there should be a 'Detailed help' on almost all the basic functions (VIs and nodes).

    I did a full install, are not all the help files pulled in with it?   The compressed install file was nearly 800meg, the f2 patch nearly 200meg, goodness knows how much disk is now occupied with all this, and there are more help files?

        

        As to the original subject, the "Positioning Tool" I'm still none the wiser either.   The Getting started document talks about it in several places, but doesnt realy tell you what it is, or how to get it.

        

    Select the menu option 'Window-> Show tools Palette', this will open a window with the several tools that a FP or BD can have. One of them is the Positioning Tool. I prefer the auto-tool and grew accustomed to how LabVIEW jumps from one tool to the other. However even just seeing what jumping happens will help you. You can turn off the auto-tool selection with the upper LED image, or use TAB to switch from tool.

    There is no such option under the "Window" menu item!   From the VI window, I think it's under "View" now.  Seems things may have moved about in '2009/V9.0f2 32 bit' from what you've descirbed, and how this seems to work.

    

           Is that document (Getting Started with LabVIEW) fully up to date with the 2009 (9.0) version, or is it (like many other software packages)

           at least one major version behind reality?   If so, where's the bleading edge doc' that relates to this version of the software?

    

    I think the Getting started is up to speed, moreover the Getting started shouldn't have changed much since LabVIEW 7.0 (mostly serious), my firstmemory is from LabVIEW 5.0.

    I can remember seeing somehing back in the Windows3x days, but not sure if it was an early LV, or some other competing toolsuite.

        

        Lastly.  Who wrote the search algorighms for the forum?  It's all or nothing, not even as good as Google (and that's often grossly poluted these days.)

    Lithium I guess

    Just add water and stand back!  More fun.   Seriously, I don't find the forum search of much use, it either returns with no hits, or so many you can't see the wood for the trees.


        
        Cheers.

        

        Dave B.

        

        

        But the way the VI user panel development GUI operates, beggars belief at the moment.

        

        . -. -..

        

    

     Uhm I don't get the latest sentence, care to elaborate.

    My comment about the VI user panel development GUI, or the little bit of Morse code?    (end)

    

    Have fun,

    I'd intend to, later this weekend!

    

    Ton

 

Cheers.  I think I need to go & warm up the kettle...

 

Dave B.

 

[LandyRover]

Hi Rod...

 

---

Rod wrote:

Hi again Dave,

Don't Panic!

Shades of the cover to the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy!

The forum system: I sometimes find the forum's posting system awkward; if I need to refer to several messages during a post, I have a copy of the thread in another tab in the browser. (Index in one tab, open the thread in another, and if I want to refer to the thread in a reply, open a second copy of the thread in another tab)

Sadly I don't have a large enough screen to do that, guess I could go and rob another one from someone else's desk while they are not looking!

Don't worry about the tutorial being for 8.6 - it will be close enough for you to follow. The visual appearance, placing and wiring of elements is unchanged. NI has kept the user interface to its windows remarkably similar for some time now. All the difference you'll probably notice is that there are a few more selections available than are mentioned in the tutorial.

I hope so, but only a couple of pages into something that was said to only take 40 minutes, two days later, I'm still trying to understand the workings of LV's GUI.

Regarding selection. I'll emphasise what Ton said. If you find the auto-tool confusing you can turn it off. The downside is that you then need to choose the tool each time you wnat to change. You may find it hard to believe NOW, but with experience you'll get to like it most of the time. It needs a bit of practise to get used to which parts of an object cause which tool to be selected, but does speed things up when you're used to it.

I've yet to actualy find the Auto Tool's controls.   It's the GUI I'm having most trouble with.

When you move an error out, make sure that you pick up the whole container (by clicking on the boundary) rather than objects within the container. Again you can also select the error out by dragging a box round the WHOLE object - start above and to the left of the whole thing, left mouse and drag to below and to the right, but making sure you don't select anything else.  Anything selected will have the moving dotted boundary. If you select an object within the error out "cluster" and move it out of the box, you will change the structure of the cluster. (A cluster is like a C typedef struct). Later you'll find that the error wires are used for passing error conditions from sub-vis back to the calling VI, and can (are) also used to determine order of execution.

As you probably saw by now, we found how to select things with a drag/swipe box (the flashing spotted border.)   Clicking on an objects boundary (in the VI window) only brings up the sizing markers, that allow you to resize it.  But whats inside the boundary do not move to stay within it, they disapear "under" the surrounding panel if you try to do anything with it that way.

In the BD window, just click once = select it, then you can grab and move it.  Much more intuitive and like other windows app's  (Yes, I know LV exists on other platforms, but most of them work in much the same way)

"C"  Your's swearing at me now 🙂    (I am aware of the similarity though, and like Delphi, you can no doubt make new objects, by using existing components in a new container?)

I did mention auto-clean earlier, but use it with caution as it can mess up carefully aligned code, and spread objects out more that you would want. However if you have a mess of wiring it can help.

As I also asked Ton, is there a way to cleanup just the "wiring" witout moving blocks arround the BD?   Or, is there an easy way to find out what port a wire is connected to, when there are multiple wires going into something with multiple ports?   There doesnt seem to be anything I've found yet, where you can click on one end of a wire, and it tells you what block(s)/port(s) the other end(s) go to, like you'd get on a paper wiring schematic, well, ours at least.

LIke the others. I'm not sure what you are doing to get the "wrong" set of controls/functions. The relevent set should appear when you right click on the BD or FP (block diagram / front panel) If yo have pinned a set, it will appear disappear as the relevant window is selected. Are you looking for a control or function with the "wrong" window at the front?

Probably because I'm good at "testing" software (read, breaking it!)  By doing things in a way the author did not intend, not always by accident.

I have also been on the other side of that, and learnt the hard way, that you absolutely must cater for all eventualities.  NEVER (sorry to shout) make assumptions that a user knows what they are doing, in fact, it's safer to assume they are an idiot.  All input should be quailified and filtered as nesesary so as not to send your code off into a black hole, or otherwise loose things, or show the wrong things.  A confused ignorant user, is much worse than just an ignorant user, believe me.  (But not as bad as the cat walking across the keyboard!)

So, (probably wrongly?) I expect other people (professionally trained in the art?) to do the right thing all the time with their code?  Or am I being too trusting, again?

Rod.

PS I've done Fortran and DG assembler on a Nova too.

Oh and if you like a post, click on it's "Kudos" star!

I'll review and click a few...

Cheers.

Dave B.

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[LandyRover]

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Dennis Knutson wrote:

I really don't know what you are doing wrong. If you click on abject, you can drag it wherever you want. Are you sure you are actually selecting something? A dotted and flashing line will appear around the object. If you are having a problem with just clicking on something, use the mouse to click and drag a box around an object. You might also want to look at how the cursor does automatic changes so that if you move the mouse over a numeric, for example, the tool will change so that you can click the increment/decrement buttons or change so that you can enter a value.

The moving of objects on the front panel is exactly the same as moving objects on the block diagram.

Sadly, that's not what I find.  In the BD, you can click once on an object, the flashing spotted box appears arround it, then you can grab it and drag it to wherever you want, no problem, any connected "Wires" rubber band accordingly.  Nice.

In the VI though, click once, just brings up 4 square spots and you can do little else with it.  However, you can (as I've since found) "throw a net" round it, then grab and drag it off to wherever you want.

Have you tried the on-line tutorials I mentioned?

Answered (I think in another post) I have downloaded the 3 hour version, at this rate (40 minutes = nigh on 2 days)  I don't think the 30 day trial will be long enough, especialy as I'm expected to keep on with my normal day job too.

Regards.

Dave B.

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[Rod42]

Hi Dave,

Some more answers.

Auto-tool.

View-Tool palette to bring it up. The crossed spanner and screwdriver is the auto-tool indicator. LED green = on. It goes off if you click in it (or any tool). With auto-tool off, you select the one you want.

Selecting objects.

Be careful WHERE on the boundary of an FP object you select, and watch the cursor. Double pointing arrow cursor = resize. If that's not what you want, move round the object's border a bit. Tip: it's usually bet to avoid the corners or the middle of a side. You don't get that as much on the BD because fewer things resize, but still watch for the resize markers on (for example) the loop constructs. Also there are fewer BD object that allow you to do things to them by clicking on them.

As an example consider a text numeric. On the FP, you can move it, resize it, change it's value by selecting increment, decrement or by typing. On the FP all you can do is move it, so the selection works anywhere on it. This changes if auto-tool is off. Also I'm ignoring the right click menu.

Double click select is very handy. Where there is one, it selects that other screen's representation of that object. On BD configurable objects it will bring up a configuration menu.

Wiring.

A single wire is tidied by right click on it and select clean up wire,

To get it right first time there are (at least) three possibilities to try; see what is best for you.

1. Click/hold at start, move to end, release.

2. Click on start, click on end.

3. Click on start, click on via(s) [empty space], click on end

I usually have Tools->Oprions->Front Panel->Enable automatic wire routing ON. It stops it going through somethine else.

To see where a wire goes triple click on it. Also try hovering the mouse on it with context help On. It will name the wire source.

The context help of an object usually shows its terminals, with the one your mouse is over indicated. You'll also get a tip box showing the terminal name. With a cleanly wired object, you often won't need these tricks as the wire will enter cleanly from (usually) the left and leave from the right of an object. Wher the connecting point is at the top or bottom, you wire to it should enter cleanly from the top/bottom.

On the BD, hover the mouse over an object. Spot the wire stubs that appear on unwired terminals.

Share and enjoy!

Oh and if you need more help, a good start is talk to you local NI rep. For the UK, call the main NI number 01635 523545. He could also point you to a number of companies who do LV consulting.

Rod.

Message Edited by Rod on 16/10/2009 13:24.. 01:24 PM

[LandyRover]

Hi Rod...

In regard to...

"I usually have Tools->Oprions->Front Panel->Enable automatic wire routing ON. It stops it going through somethine else."

In 2009, that's in Tools->Options->Block Diagram->Wiring  Where all options are already ON by default.

I'm really beginning to suspect lots of small details like this have moved about in 2009, compared to earlier versions, that the tutorials and examples relate to.  Shades of MS's methods creeping in.  Continual changes giving the illusion of progress?

As to selecting things.  The VI "Knobs", to select them with one click, you have to do that in the sunken area immediatly surrounding the rotatable part of the knob.  Less than intuitive again, and only found as you (or someone) suggested, by having the tool menu visible and watching it as I move the cursor about the VI and it's objects.

As to the local (UK) NI Rep, it was them who got me into this mess!   Well, the big Boss here told me to find out about it all, and if there are any training courses available.   It didn't take much time to find NI's UK base, and to contact them, or get a list from the website of what courses (and costs) are available.

I forget the name down there, but he sent me a link to get the 30 day trial.  Big Boss upstairs went very quiet when I showed him the cost of even the basic beginner course.  (somewhere in the area of 1500 UKP, for 3 days, and that is only the course, two or three hotel nights plus subsistance and traveling etc will have to be added to that.)  I suspect, I'm going to have to fight my way through this myself, quite what we're going to do when the 30 day trial is up (a fresh install on another PC?) I dont know, fully activating this, or buying anew, is not exactly low cost either. The last price I could find for the Development package, was somewhere arround 3000 UKP per anum!!!!!

NI in the UK seem strangely reticent about quoting prices...

Nearly home time now.  Today has not exactly been productive, sadly.

Thanks for your time.

Best Regards.

Dave B.