Multifunction DAQ

cancel
Showing results for 
Search instead for 
Did you mean: 

Thermocouple Roof Top Measurements

Hello,

 

I am trying to setup a tank on my roof to measure how it heats up water based on varying heights of water.

I have a NI USB-6009 and was looking to buy a NI USB-9211A, so I could take 4 measurements at once, and then some thermocouples.

 

I assume my roof top temperature to be between 32 and 150 degrees F, so I was thinking of using a J or T thermocouple.

 

I was wondering if anyone had any advice on the hardware setup. I am worried about trying to extend the wires from my roof to my computer and how thicknesses of wire and solder joints might effect my data. I was also wondering what type of thermocouple and probe head to use with the NI USB-9211A.

 

I am relatively new to using thermocouples for testing, but would like to try this out.

 

Thanks.

0 Kudos
Message 1 of 4
(3,087 Views)

The big thing to remember is that thermocouple signals are very small - microvolts to millivolts - in that temperature range.  This means that you must be very careful about spurious signals of all types.

 

One in the ubiquitous power line noise.  If you have any pumps or solenoid valves in your system the voltage and power levels for those devices is 3 to 6 orders of magnitude larger than those of the thermocouples.  Very small amounts of capacitive or inductive coupling between the power lines and your thermocouples can overwhelm the signals.  Shielded thermocoulple wires may help.

 

Another is unintended thermocouple effect.  This can occur when splices or connections in the thermocouple lines are at different temperatures.  You must use thermocouple wire or thremocouple extension wire of the same type as your thermocouples. Solder is generally not a good idea with thermocouples because you are adding at least two new metals (= 3 or more new thermocouples) into the circuit.  The size of the wires is mostly dictated by mechanical considerations.  The currents are so small that the voltage drop due to the resistance of the wires is almost never significant.

 

The type of probe head should be driven by how the thermocouples are installed in the tank.  Industrial systems usually use thermowells, but they can be expensive. For a home project I would probably select a stainless steel sheathed probe.  The cost is similar to other types and they hold up well.  You may want to put soem extra silicone sealant around the transition joint where the wire exits the sheath to help with the waterproofing.

 

Have you considered that your thermocouples will look like lightning rods to any thunderstorms which come along?  Even if you do not get a direct lightning strike the static discharges will destroy your DAQ devices, your computer, and may injure you.  Even if the tank is protected by lightning rods and is well grounded, your equipment is at considerable risk.  I have seen the insides of equipment cases copper plated by wires vaporized by a nearby lightning strike.  This was a radio receiver connected to a rooftop antenna, but the lightning does not care what gets in the way of its path to ground.  Completely shielded thermocouples with the shields connected to a lightinig-protection-rated grounding system might work.  Maybe. I would probably add transient voltage protection at all the thermocouple input connections to the DAQ devices.  The details are beyond what is feasible in a brief posting on the Forum.

 

Signal conditioning at the tank can avoid a lot of the noise problems.  Sending the data to the computer optically or via a radio link can avoid the lightning issues (except for power to the signal conditioners/transmitters).

 

Lynn

Message 2 of 4
(3,081 Views)

With a 6009 and thermistors in series with an resistor  you can measure these temperatures . Thermistors in the 1k-20k Range will allow you to use standard cable (I like CAT network cable, shielded and cheap, and give you 4 twisted pairs)  while the resistive error due to the cable length is still low enough for this kind of measurement (and could be mostly compensated if needed).

 

The protection against lightning could be placed in the USB cable if needed.  Your powerlines are nice antennas anyway 😉

 

I heat my water (and home)  with solar energy and need additional energy for 3-4 months a year 🙂 . If you plan to warm up water, my concern would be more about legionella and other bacteria. (Solved by a tank of 'black water' and a water/water heat exchanger like run some meter pipe of fresh water through the tank)

 

Greetings from Germany
Henrik

LV since v3.1

“ground” is a convenient fantasy

'˙˙˙˙uıɐƃɐ lɐıp puɐ °06 ǝuoɥd ɹnoʎ uɹnʇ ǝsɐǝld 'ʎɹɐuıƃɐɯı sı pǝlɐıp ǝʌɐɥ noʎ ɹǝqɯnu ǝɥʇ'


Message 3 of 4
(3,074 Views)

Thank you Lynn and Henrik.

 

I will definitely take care of the lightning issue and concerns about other electronics.

 

After reading some more, I think I will be going with a Special T Type Thermocouple that has a grounded junction. It provides great tolerance, temperature range is 0 to 370C, and will last longer than an exposed junction. I will also be getting thremocouple extension wire for each of the four thermocouples. Labview will be run off of my laptop, which I will definitely be unplugging along with my DAQ boards during any possibility of lightning and when not in use. Good call on that one.

 

I do have many CAT cables running other signals around the place, but I think spending the extra bucks for a specific extension wire will improve the data.

 

My goal is to see temperature changes at levels in the water, based on water height and wall materials.

 

Other than the NI USB-9211A, the thermocouples with the universal plug, and then the matching extension wires, I shouldn't need to buy any other hardware?

 

Thanks again and in advance for responding with great advice.

0 Kudos
Message 4 of 4
(3,011 Views)